This week we are covering Chapter 26 of The Path of Daggers, the first section of which was an absolute joy to read, and the second part of which was exactly the opposite. In many ways, this one chapter shows an example of what I love best about Jordan’s work and also some of the things I… don’t. I’m feeling the whiplash of that, I must say, but it’s also going to make for a very interesting installment of Reading The Wheel of Time.
Content warning: This post contains discussion of rape and rape analogy.
Seaine has been searching the Tower for hours, chilled by the cold and the frosty attitudes of the other sisters, looking for Zerah Dacan. She reflects on the changes that have come over the Ajahs. There have been incidents of sisters being “bundled unceremoniously from the hallways around another Ajah’s quarters” and even beaten. Seaine thinks it’s a pity that the Hall could not obstruct Elaida’s decree, and now the Ajahs are behaving like armed camps.
Seaine finally finds Zerah, and instructs the younger sister to come with her. Zerah shows some apprehension as she is led down into the depths of the tower, to a level even lower than that where the Accepted are tested. Seaine brings her into a small room where Pevara is waiting at a table she and Seaine had managed to sneak down. Zerah shows clear alarm at the situation, but when Pevara tells her that they want to know if she is Black Ajah, her nervousness changes to outrage.
She accuses the Reds of setting up false dragons and suggests that it is among their ranks that one should be looking for Darkfriends. Pevara is furious, but Seaine intervenes. Pevara produces the Oath Rod, telling Zerah she will swear on it. Zerah is willing to swear the Three Oaths again, and promises to demand an apology afterwards, but she snatches her hand away when Pevara tells her that she will be swearing to obey Pevara and Seaine.
“That way, we can tell you to answer truthfully and know you will, and if you give the wrong answer, we can know you’ll be obedient and helpful in helping us hunt down your Black sisters. The Rod can be used to free you of the oath, if you give the right answer.”
“To free—?” Zerah exclaimed. “I’ve never heard of anyone being loosed from an oath on the Oath Rod.”
Seaine explains that, since the Black Ajah must be able to lie, there must be a way to free someone from their oath. She and Pevara have tested it. She doesn’t mention that they have no intention of freeing Zerah afterwards, even if she does not turn out to be a Black sister, because their operation must remain a secret.
To prove that they re-took their Oaths after freeing themselves, Pevara takes up the Rod and takes the Oaths in front of Zerah, then states aloud that she is not a Darkfriend. Seaine follows suit. It is uncomfortable. Zerah continues to hesitate, then finally speaks the promise of obedience, ecstatic to be able to state that she is not Black Ajah.
They confront Zerah over her tale of coming back to the Tower from the North. She insists that it’s true, but a red cockleburr found on her saddle proves she was in the south. When Pevara asks where her journey started and why, Zerah blurts that she came from Salidar, and that she came to make sure all the Sisters in the Tower knew about Logain and the Red Ajah, so they will depose Elaida and the Tower can be made whole again.
Pevara is furious at Zerah for starting that rumor, and demands that she admit that it is a lie. But when Zerah starts choking and writhing, Seaine realizes that Zerah believes that the story is true. Pevara has just given her two conflicting orders, to tell the truth and to lie. Pevara resists for a moment, and then tells Zerah that she doesn’t have to lie.
Seaine is struck by the concept of conflicting orders, and wonder if the Black Ajah replaces the Three Oaths with their own oaths. That would make all their questioning more complicated. Pevara is ready to reveal Zerah, but Seaine hesitates, pointing out that since Zerah is a rebel they don’t have to feel bad about using her in their search.
She asks for the number and names of any sisters who were sent with Zerah, and give her careful orders to bring one of them down to this room to be questioned. Pevara also orders Zerah to stop mentioning the Red Ajah and false dragons together, and Zerah, sullen, has no choice but to obey.
Pevara and Seaine argue while they wait about how best to act towards the rebels they have discovered, and when and how much punishment they deserve. But when the door opens again it is not Zerah returning but a group of Sitters—Saerin, Yukiri, Doesine, and Talene. Seaine hides the Oath Rod in her skirts.
Saerin remarks how strange it is to see Pevara and Seaine skulking around together, while Seaine tries to think what would bring these four Sitters for four different Ajahs—Green, Yellow, Brown, and Gray—all the way down here. She has several alarming deductions in mind, but it is revealed that Yukiri saw them sneaking around. Yukiri insists that she didn’t think it was any of her business until Talene started bothering her about sisters huddling in corners. Talene demands to know if the heads of the White and Red Ajah set Pevara and Seaine to a secret task. Pevara tells them what the head of her Ajah says to her is none of their business, and Doesine grumbles that this whole thing is a waste of time. But Saerin is keener than all of them, and discovers the Oath Rod hidden on Seaine’s lap.
She snatches it up, and the three other newcomers babble questions and accusations, Talene still asking about the Ajah Heads, until Saerin quiets them.
“This is the key to the puzzle, I think,” she said, stroking the Rod with her thumb. “Why this, after all?” Abruptly the glow of saidar surrounded her, too, and she channeled Spirit to the Rod. “Under the Light, I will speak no word that is not true. I am not a Dark-friend.”
She hands the Rod back, and Seaine and Pevara take the oath against lying and swear. Yukiri and Doesine do the same, but Talene resists, calling the whole event foolish and insisting that there is no Black Ajah.
“Even to ask this is a slander. Worse than slander!” Something feral moved in her eyes. An irrational thought, perhaps, but that was what Seaine saw. “Now move out of my way,” Talene demanded with all the authority of a Sitter in her voice. “I am leaving!”
“I think not,” Pevara said quietly, and Yukiri nodded slowly in agreement. Saerin did not stroke her knife hilt; she gripped it till her knuckles went white.
Toveine Gazal, leading four other Red sisters and a party of twenty Tower guards, believes that she is only a day or two from reaching the Black Tower, where she will rendezvous with nine other similar groups. She imagines that Elaida thinks that Toveine must be grateful to be taken out of exile and given this assignment, but she is not.
What had been done twenty years ago was necessary, and the Light burn all those who muttered that the Black Ajah must have been involved. It had been necessary and right, but Toveine Gazal had been driven from her chair in the Hall, and forced to howl for mercy under the birch, with the assembled sisters watching, and even novices and Accepted witnessing that Sitters, too, lay beneath the law, though they were not told what law.
After her punishment, Toveine was sent to work on a farm in the Black Hills where she was treated like any other servant or farmhand by the mistress there.
And Elaida had slipped through the cracks uncaught, danced her way to the Amyrlin Seat that Toveine had once dreamed of for herself. No, she was not grateful. But she had learned to wait her chance.
A tall man in a black coat appears suddenly from the trees, shielding Toveine with the One Power and promising not to hurt her if she surrenders. She warns the sisters, telling them to link, and is startled when they report also being shielded. More men, fifteen in all, emerge from the trees. Toveine decides that the Black Tower must have sent every man who could channel against her. Knowing that men believe that they can only channel as far as they could see, she gives a low order for all the sisters to break on her command, ride away until they are no longer shielded, and then return to help the guards.
She gives the order and the guardsmen engage the Asha’man as the sisters break for the trees. She hears the tall man shouting not to harm any Aes Sedai, by order of the Dragon Reborn. The shield doesn’t falter, and suddenly she is knocked from her saddle by an invisible blow and held in the air. Realizing that it must be saidin holding her, she fights panic. When the man lowers her down to sit in front of him on his horse she sees the pins on his coat, a silver sword on one side and a strange red and gold creature on the other. She is the prisoner of a man who can channel, and at the realization she begins to scream and fight, calling for deliverance from the Shadow.
Dimly she was aware of his horse plunging and dancing as her heels drummed its shoulder. Dimly she heard the man talking. “Easy, you lump-eared sack of coal! Calm down, sister. I’m not going to—Easy, you spavined mule! Light! My apologies, sister, but this is how we learn to do it.” And then he kissed her.
Toveine feels herself melt, filled with warmth, and then with calm. The man remarks that he “could have done without the extra bit” but that he supposes it was necessary. Toveine doesn’t understand why she feels calm, why she doesn’t object to his command not to use the Power without permission, or why she readily offers her name when he asks.
Another Asha’man emerges from the trees, addressing the man as Logain and pointing out that the M’Hael won’t like him taking a second one.
But despite learning that this man is Logain, a False Dragon who was gentled and shouldn’t be able to channel at all, despite realizing that she is free and has access to the knife at her belt, Toveine has no desire to do anything of the sort. As Logain turns his horse, she asks what he did to her, and when he explains, she puts her head against his chest and weeps.
She was going to make Elaida pay for this, she vowed. If Logain ever let her, she would. That last was an especially bitter thought.
When I finished this chapter, I found myself sitting and staring for a while, trying to figure out what I just read, and how I felt about it. At first I wasn’t sure, but after looking over the section again, I’m certain that what happened here is that Logain bonded Toveine.
Now, we know from Rand’s experience, and the various Aes Sedai’s reactions to learning about it, that the White Tower views non-consensual bonding as a terrible personal violation, akin to rape. And while some (such as Verin and Cadsuane) have considered that they would perform this evil and many others if they thought it necessary, they still regard it as an evil. Verin believes that Alanna only made this impulsive decision because of her emotional turmoil after the death of her Warder, something I never really got into in my analysis because, well, I think it’s dumb. If the narrative had been concerned with exploring the idea that she really regretted her actions and felt that they were a mistake, or if it was insinuated that the bonding was made in some kind of metaphysical instinctual reaction, that might have been worth exploring, although I’m not sure I would have thought it a good choice. As it is, however, the line from Verin is a one off, and without further context the analogy basically becomes “Alanna was so emotional she couldn’t help but rape someone.” Which… just no.
I do think it is relevant that no Aes Sedai has insisted, or even suggested, that Alanna dissolve the bond between herself and Rand. They might be disgusted, might wish it hadn’t happened, but now that they have this potential hook in Rand, no one is planning to let it go, even though it hasn’t proved at all useful thus far. This plays into the larger theme that Jordan has constructed around what Aes Sedai are willing to do to Rand if they believe it necessary for the good of the world, and the fact that they believe that they, not he, need to be the ones directing his actions up to, and possible during, the Last Battle.
But more importantly, the narrative does spend a great deal of time on Rand’s experience of this bonding, showing from his point of view how it feels to have Alanna’s presence trespassing and invading his mind. It’s nuanced, and considers the ways in which other characters do or don’t understand what he is going through. This violation is also compared and contrasted with his ongoing struggle with the PTSD that resulted from his kidnapping (another point on the “things the Aes Sedai are willing to do because they think they’re right” list). Finally, it is held up as another (very understandable) reason Rand refuses to trust any Aes Sedai who is not unbreakably sworn to him, and not really even then.
The narrative has so much empathy for Rand around this subject, and he’s so closed off that while few people can guess at his internal world, we see moments of tenderness from those who care for him. Mostly from Min and the Maidens, but even Cadsuane regrets having to be harsh with him, if only to herself. And for all the hubris he is showing and mistakes he is making in The Path of Daggers, it’s impossible to forget what he has been through, and the reader is deeply connected to the fact that he is suffering, that he is faced with impossible odds, that he is incredibly afraid to trust almost everyone in his life.
Min being an exception, of course, but even that fact makes coming into the section with Toveine even more jarring. Seeing Rand’s struggle through the eyes of a woman who loves him only increases our sense of connection to and empathy for him; the scene when the Maidens beat him was extremely emotionally harrowing because Min didn’t understand why it was happening, but the reader did. And then there is the encounter with Cadsuane, which I will talk about later, but which made me absolutely ache with second-hand rage and embarrassment for Rand.
And then, in the next section, we see a non-consensual bonding, the only one we have encountered besides Rand’s, and I immediately felt completely jarred from the story because it reminded me of how differently the torture and pain experienced by men is presented to the reader than is the torture of women, especially Aes Sedai and female Forsaken.
Jordan has populated his story with some many complex and interesting women, and through his narrative device of the White Tower he has given many of those women a great deal of authority, prestige, and political and social power. He has also put them into a position of experiencing a great deal of graphic torture and humiliation, which often has a sexual component. Women in torture scenes are always stripped naked, which doesn’t happen to men. There is a continued focus on the switching of bottoms, after which the narrative always goes to some length to remind us again and again of how uncomfortable said woman’s backside feels when she sits in a chair or rides a horse. Even when we’re dealing with good guys, like the Aiel or some of the better Aes Sedai, there is a focus on the baring of bodies. And even outside of torture there are always other reasons for women to have to be naked for no reason: The Hall must bare their chests during the raising of an Amyrlin; novices must proceed completely naked through the arches; women going to Rhuidean must get naked before they even start down towards the mists. etc. etc.
When all these scenes are viewed together it creates a pattern that is impossible to ignore. And the encounter between Toveine and Logain has brought the matter to my mind in a new way. Although there is no torture or nudity in this scene, the way the character of Toveine is set up by the narrative creates a startling contrast to the only other time we see this same kind of event take place, with Rand.
First off, there is absolutely no reason for the Black Tower men to need to bond a woman by kissing her. That is not how any other type of weave we have seen thus far works. And it is very, very pointed that an action that has been likened to rape is performed by another non-consensual sexual act. Logain’s control over Toveine also seems to be much stronger, or perhaps more wide-ranging, than what we’ve seen in a standard Warder Aes Sedai bond.
Now, there will almost certainly be more information forthcoming about how Asha’man bond people, and some of that might include the fact that Taim is a Darkfriend and has been teaching the Asha’man some really morally bad things. Perhaps that is the reason that Toveine’s experience of being bonded reminds me a little of Compulsion. As always, since I am a first time reader analyzing the books as I go, my analysis might be affected by what I read in subsequent chapters and books.
It’s also possible that the reason the Asha’man learned to create bonds first, or primarily, to stay connected with their wives back on the farm, as we saw with Jur and his wife. This might be why Logain makes the comment “You’re hardly a wife,” to Toveine. However, even if that is part of the explanation, it doesn’t change the fact that this is a poor narrative choice, and one that reflects other similar choices that Jordan has made in the way he handles female characters.
Toveine is an appalling person. We have just met her, but everything we have learned about her is horrible. I’m pretty sure that the law she broke and was punished for was the systematic slaughtering of men suspected of channeling which was started by the Black Ajah when they discovered that the Dragon had been reborn. This action, which I think is what Siuan, Cadsuane, and a few others were referring to when they mentioned “the Vileness,” has been alluded to several times in The Path of Daggers, and although I am operating with a little extra knowledge, since I skipped ahead and read New Spring, it is clear in this section that Toveine was involved in something very bad, for which she and others were punished, but from which Elaida escaped intact. Even if the reader were only speculating, there are enough clues here, with our knowledge of how the average Red behaves and what kinds of trespasses get sisters so severely treated under Tower Law, to get a good idea of what she must have done. But in case that isn’t enough to make us hate her, we also learn that she is probably a pedophile, or at least close to being one (it is a little unclear in the narrative if “boys” literally means a teen or just means a young man), and prefers boys who are “eager and grateful and easily controlled.” It’s a horrific sentiment, and puts her more firmly in the camp of “Bad Guy” than she would have been if she’d just been your average Black Ajah member.
And then she gets metaphorically raped, which does not feel like a coincidence. The most horrific torture scenes also feature female baddies, like Galina being tortured by the Shaido and then bound to Therava and Sevana. She’s the one who so horribly tortured Rand; the reader is hardly set up to feel sympathy for her. Moghedien’s torture after being freed by Aran’gar is more psychological than physical, but it is certainly horrific and Moghedien is still grateful not to have been raped into madness by Shaidar Haran, because for some reason Jordan felt the need to add the world-building detail that the Myrddraal have a sexual appetite. Which, again, there is no reason to do, but does allow bad guys to threaten bad ladies with that fate.
And of course, Moghedien also ends up a mind slave, even more completely than the other two. One comes away from the narrative with the decided impression that the writer wants to dwell on these moments, that the scenes in which evil women are tortured and treated badly are allowed to be more graphic than any other scenes because they are evil, and that it’s less objectionable because these women are evil and they deserve it. And although there are male Forsaken and Darkfriends whose demises don’t exactly call for our pity, nothing they go through compares to what the women are put through by the story.
Not all torture or imprisonment of women is overly sexualized or gratuitous, of course—Egwene’s time as a damane, for example, is dark but thematically interesting, and her experience and resulting trauma is handled by the narrative very similarly to the way Rand’s is, right down to her determination to push herself too hard in her recovery, and the way she hides her reactions to being reminded of her time as a captive. But taken as whole, the pattern is clear enough to be uncomfortable and worth talking about.
One of the most challenging aspects of reviewing and analyzing literature, for me anyway, is striking the right balance when addressing the concept of authorial intent. What the creator intended is an important part of any work of art, not because it should overrule the audience experience, but because it lends useful and often very interesting context to the experience of consuming the art. But it is not as important, in my mind, as the audience’s takeaway from the work. And in a work that asks many questions about the dynamics between genders, it feels especially important to note this.
However, I did mention at the beginning of this rather lengthy post that there was much I loved about Chapter 26, and that absolutely remains true. Ever since Elaida sent her on this secret mission, I’ve been waiting to catch up with Seaine, and I’m absolutely delighted with what we got. I even predicted a little of what happened in my post last week, and how delicious it was to watch Elaida’s attempt at personal vengeance result in the accidental discovery of the Black Ajah within the Tower.
The narrative does an excellent job of showing us what the hunt for the Black Ajah feels like for Seaine, who is a White who actually thinks and behaves the way I imagine a White should behave. The way she was aware of her own emotions, neither stifling them nor becoming overwhelmed by them, seemed like true logic to me, and also like a good way to maintain the kind of serenity Aes Sedai are expected to have.
I think her impression that Saerin, Yukiri, Doesine, and Talene regret backing Elaida and might be considering their options is probably right. Minus Talene, anyway. And I think that Seaine might be on her way to joining them, given her relatively mild reaction to learning the truth about Zerah and her focus on the damage Elaida is doing to the Tower. She is still attached to the idea that the Tower must stay together at all costs, but I could easily see her switching her allegiance from Elaida to Egwene if she thought that it would serve the Tower best. And that is not a difficult argument to make.
Elaida was already getting herself into hot water, but I have to wonder if Alviarin’s attempts to further weaken the Tower might backfire even harder than her attempts to find out what the Ajah heads are up to just did. The worse Elaida seems, the easier it will be for the reasonable, good sisters still in the Tower to see their way to backing Egwene. And if Egwene is coming to the White Tower and bringing all the rebels with her, then that presents a new opportunity for reunification that’s currently available to any sister who followed Elaida.
Poor Zerah, though. I really felt for her, and not just because I am obviously on the rebels’ side in the White Tower schism. I can just imagine the rollercoaster of emotions she went through, first concerned at the strangeness of being taken so deep into the Tower, then justly horrified at being accused of being Black Ajah, then probably slightly relieved since her true secret didn’t seem to be under investigation, and then doubly horrified as her secret is discovered and she learns that she will not be freed from her oath of obedience.
Fortunately, Seaine is a good and reasonable person, as is Pevara, really, despite her more hot-headed nature and her personal anger over the accusations being made about her Ajah. Zerah may be forced into revealing her co-conspirators and the dangerous work of Black Ajah hunting, but Seaine and Pevara aren’t going to bring any harm to her, and if the hunt lasts long enough and Egwene is able to succeed in her plans, Zerah might escape being revealed and punished altogether. Still, she has been enslaved against her will using the One Power and is now being forced into certain actions that are against her moral desires. In that respect, she and Toveine are the same, and I imagine all the other Salidar spies will also soon be joining the ranks of mentally enslaved women… as will Talene.
I do hope that this trend will be treated with more care by the narrative going forward. There is certainly room in The Wheel of Time’s exploration of the horrors of war, the difference between being hard and being strong, and the meaning of free will and choice to do something thoughtful with this idea of mental bondage through the One Power. And of course the issue of the damane remains to be tackled as the Seanchan take greater hold of the Westlands, and the narrative has poked at that a little.
Still I worry, based on what has been touched on so far, that this collaring of female channelers will be mostly left on the sidelines as the story continues, and that the unbalanced and gratuitous nature of the horrors visited on women will continue.
Next week we will catch up with Rand and I will deal with another kind of whiplash as I try to decide if I love or hate the character of Cadsuane. And then it’s off to Andor for a very interesting conversation between Elayne and Dyelin… and some dark friends getting up to no good. It’s Chapter 27 and 28 of The Path of Daggers. See you then!
Sylas K Barrett is thinking a lot this week about what makes a baddie interesting or uninteresting, and just can’t stop thinking about how Liandrin has been re-imagined and revamped for The Wheel of Time television show. Seriously, she’s like my favorite character now.
About the Author
Sylas K Barrett
Author
Sylas K Barrett is a queer writer and creative based in Brooklyn. A fan of nature, character work, and long flowery descriptions, Sylas has been heading up Reading the Wheel of Time since 2018. You can (occasionally) find him on social media on Bluesky (@thatsyguy.bsky.social) and Instagram (@thatsyguy)
When you login first time using a Social Login button, we collect your account public profile information shared by Social Login provider, based on your privacy settings. We also get your email address to automatically create an account for you in our website. Once your account is created, you'll be logged-in to this account.
DisagreeAgree
Connect with
I allow to create an account
When you login first time using a Social Login button, we collect your account public profile information shared by Social Login provider, based on your privacy settings. We also get your email address to automatically create an account for you in our website. Once your account is created, you'll be logged-in to this account.
Do we get an explanation of why the Reds were bonded immediately? That’s another narrative choice which seems questionable.
The in-world explanation for the kiss is consistent with the established connections between gestures and weaving. It can be justified internally for whatever that’s worth.
Hi, all! While we realize that this is the sort of topic that invites speculation on an author’s private life and personal proclivities, it doesn’t seem like the most productive path, here. Let’s try to keep the discussion and theories focused on the work–thanks!
I don’t remember if there’s an in-book explanation, but I think it’s because the compulsion that’s included in the bonding means they don’t have to kill the Sisters. Logain had influence but not quite enough to challenge Taim at this time, so his choices for dealing with the Red Sisters (who had come to forcibly bond the men) were killing or bonding. It’s been a while since I’ve read the series, so I could be wrong.
Masha
1 year ago
@2 There is some explanation as to why Reds were bonded instantly, it’s to bring them under control and avoid a fight, also Logain believed he was saving them from Taim and others, because he was afraid they would be killed or have a mock trial and then killed. Bonding them removes an excuse from Taim to kill them.
As for the kiss there is also an in-story explanation, because that’s how Asha’man learned bonding. They kiss their wives to bond them. “An extra bit” refers to Compulsion to obey part.
For the Compulsion part, I believe there will be a reciprocal conversion from Aes Sedai when they decide to start bonding Asha’man, either from White Tower or from Salidar, where a large contingent of Aes Sedai will discuss bonding Asha’man and secretly adding a Compulsion part, to make them more complaint. And if I remember my timeline correctly, Aes Sedai discuss it BEFORE Logain forceful bonding of Aes Sedai becomes known to them.
Pevara is furious at Zerah for starting that rumor, and demands that she admit that it is a lie. But when Zerah starts choking and writhing, Seaine realizes that Pevara believes that the story is true.
Zerah believes the story, Pevara obviously doesn’t.
The AS didn’t plan to bond the Asha’man, they wanted to gentle them (maybe without a proper trial, another reason for choosing someone who was involved in that before as the leader).
MODS: Several times in Sylas’s commentary, Zerah was misspelled as “Zhara.”
Anyway. This is a sensitive subject. Suffice to say there will be more nudity, and also more violence against women. But there is also some significant physical and mental torture of male characters that is arguably worse than any seen on the page against women thus far. Once in a scene written by Jordan, once in a scene written by Sanderson, and that’s just what I could think of off the top of my head. YMMV.
Jeff
1 year ago
One of the things Jordan loves to do is set up little parallel situations. Here we have Zerah forcibly compelled to obey someone (or two someones in this case) and Toveine forcibly compelled to obey someone.
Austin
1 year ago
I think it’s important to note that many people questioned Robert Jordan’s proclivity for female nudity and rape/bondage themes back when he was still alive and writing. So it’s not something that was just a product of a different time or something; this was an important discussion even back then.
I think the various discussions around how torture is tied into nudity for female characters, but not for male characters, is an interesting one, though Sylas is being a little selective in his memory of when these things happen. Lan, for example, is explicitly raped by Myrelle using the compulsion aspect of the Warder bond, and of course Moiraine passing the bond in the first place is a type of rape. On the whole, however, it’s definitely weighted and that deserves some inspection.
However, this seems like a bad instance to bring it up. First off, there isn’t a real parallel to be drawn between Toveine and Rand. Even without the meta aspect, where Rand is a hero and Toveine at best an antagonist, their situations are fundamentally dissimilar. Toveine is preparing to launch an armed assault on a bunch of innocent people, with the explicit purpose of severing them from the Source, which is repeatedly called out as aa fate worse than death (and which nearly always leads to death). In that sense, nearly any action that Logain and his followers take to prevent their own stilling is morally justifiable as simple self defense. Beyond that, we can infer now from Taim’s attitude, and get confirmation later, that this is Logain actually attempting to spare the lives of Toveine and her sisters, in a place where it would be infinitely easier to just let them die.
Alanna mind rapes and essentially tries to enslave Rand because she thinks it’ll gain her and the Tower an advantage, and his feelings or agency or intentions (which are benign) be damned. Logain does the same as not only an act of fully-justifiable self-defense, but also inconveniences himself and puts his position at considerable risk in order to actively help people who are there to kill him.
Should keep in mind Moiraine’s handling of her bond with Lan, or Alanna admitting when asked that she had tried to Comple Rand via the bond – such compulsion was clearly seen by Aes Sedai as a normal part of the warder bond.
So it is not surprising, ISTM, that the Asha’man should adopt the same attitude…
Brent
1 year ago
@8 .” But there is also some significant physical and mental torture of male characters that is arguably worse than any seen on the page against women thus far. ” Arguably when Semirhage overstimulates and kills Cabriana Sedai’s Warder with pleasure, that is pretty much the worst on screen torture we see in the entire series. And I am pretty sure that already happened.
What “they” said up post re bonding Aes Sedai to avoid killing them and using kissing because that was how they learned to do the bond from other Ashaman. There was no intent shown in text by Logain’s men to be excessive, abusive or sexual.
More Reds were bonded in this exercise because Elaida volunteered them to engage in the mission (to take out the few men she believed were likely to be in the Black Tower). . .
Bart
1 year ago
Speaking of forced subservient raltions (bond): One of the things the narrative leaves out is wether the bond between the male forsaken and the dark one (that protects them from the taint) has other consequences – that may place the male forsaken in a more dependant role in their relation with the dark one (mind reading, compulsion, other?). The male forsaken would have had no choice in accepting this bond even with the drawbacks.
Also no mention of this bond after Rand cleanses the taint.
Would have been interesting for Jordan to explore that a little bit.
In her entry in The Wheel of Time Companion, it clarifies that Toveine’s preference for “young boys” is those in their mid to late teens. So, at least from a modern perspective, she is a pedophile.
Masha
1 year ago
I always assumed that bond between the Dark One and Forsaken regardless of whether thry are Male or Female is identical, because it allows them to draw upon the One Power. As added bonus, that same bond provides protection from the taint to the Male Forsaken. As per books, Graendal taunts Demandred and other males that they less trustworthy since they are no longer dependant on the Dark One for taint protection. It means to me that Forsaken connection for Male and females was the same, but since Females didn’t receive extra bonus of taint protection and still remained loyal they are more faithful to the Dark One than Males who got that extra incentive to stay loyal.
@13 – Yes, that is another example that was pretty bad, but what I was thinking about was another scene involving Semi in TGS. And I’d argue that the victim there considered that a torture worse than death.
@19 – I’m not sure that I’d call it identical for male and female Forsaken. The male Forsaken have those “black cords” which siphon off the taint, but the females are never seen with them. Rand severed the black cords on both Ishamael and Asmodean. But RJ also explicitly said that the ability to channel the True Power (not One Power) was a matter of 1) being able to channel and 2) the Dark One letting you, and NOT the black cords, which were a separate thing.
So I’m not sure it’s helpful to think of them as the same thing, or even that the black cords could be considered a “bond.” In all cases, the Forsaken still had total free will to do evil, good, or even to betray the Dark One. They would certainly be punished for some of those things, but they were not bound by compulsion against doing them. The Dark One isn’t even aware of all the petty betrayals the Forsaken did. Unlike the Black Ajah who are completely bound against betraying the DO. And of course the exception of those who are mindtrapped with the cour’souvra, who are effectively compelled to behave because they under constant surveillance and can be snuffed out with a pinch of the fingers from halfway around the world if they don’t.
I remember that when PoD was released most people assumed “the extra bit” was the surprise orgasm as part of the bonding. It certainly still reads that way to me but perhaps interpretations have changed.
Nigel Redpath
1 year ago
It seems this section touched a nerve. I know on my past readings of the series I never really picked up on the pattern being presented here with regard to female characters often being striped, and the way they are tortured. I find the argument about wise ones on their first trip needing to be naked especially persuasive in this. I guess I internalised the use of switching and spanking as corporal punishment which seems super common in the type of power structures shown in the white tower and elsewhere, though that could have been me just taking from my own life experience and projecting it. I wish over the years I’d been more aware of what the community was talking about in regards to the series but I enjoyed it in nearly complete isolation.
As for the difference in the bond between men and women I seem to recall that Aes Sedai absolutely can use the bond to compel their warders, and that rand is the exception to that, something I always attributed to him being Ta’veren. Is that not the case?
Generic Asha'man
1 year ago
@22 I’m pretty sure that Rand can resist the compelling of the bond not out of being ta’veren, but from the mental conditioning he’s forced on himself. Alanna at one point mentions it’s like trying to push a stone, if I recall correctly.
It may be just me, but my read on a bunch of this was that there were people doing bad things as you got closer to the possible end of the world. The world kept getting bleaker all around, and so people were taking more and more extreme measures as it went. Maybe I was glossing over some of the issues, but to me, it seemed like that was the tone the world RJ was going for in the world.
Also worth pointing out that some of the “nudity” rituals have an actual purpose which requires a lack of clothing. I guess it is the pattern and not individual instance that is the problem – but so much of the nudity we encounter is among female channelers, not “regular” people. And women in this universe have a very strong, very rational desire to do everything in their power to ensure that men aren’t infiltrating any of these ceremonies… because those men will go insane and turn into rogue WMDs, essentially. Stopping that ahead of time is of massive importance.
Jade Phoenix
1 year ago
It’s also worth remembering, for what it’s worth, that in every instance of ceremonial nudity, the ceremony was designed by other women. As far as I can remember, the only man that ever forces a woman to strip is Ishamael.
It’s not mental conditioning; Rand can resist Alanna’s attempt to use the bond against him because he was holding saidin at the time. (There’s another passage in the same book where, IIRC, Sammael or Graendal observes that holding the Power makes the “little tricks” impossible to use on that person.) Had Alanna tried when Rand wasn’t holding the Power…
Of course, because this is a series where a lot of information is missing and a lot of people never talk to each other, this doesn’t become a big point because Alanna just assumes that Rand is uncompellable and never tries again (and because Rand rarely lets her into his presence again…)
@22, @23 – Alanna said it was like picking up a tree with your bare hands, but close enough. :) I always thought that it wasn’t about being ta’veren… Alanna couldn’t compel Rand because of either him being the strongest male channeler of all time, or the fact that he was holding a huge amount of saidin at the moment she tried to compel him. As far as I know RJ didn’t explicitly confirm this, but he implied it with a comment in a blog post from 2005:
“A very strong male channeler bonded to a very weak Aes Sedai could not use the bond to control her. Whoever holds the bond is in charge, though she might have a hard time controlling him.”
If it was just plain impossible because of ta’veren nature, I feel like Alanna’s description might have been more like, “It’s as impossible as a farmer learning to fly.” But picking up a tree makes it sound more like, “It’s theoretically possible, but no one in a million years would be strong enough to do it.”
@@@@@ 25 – the issue is that whether or not it’s women asking other women to get naked, it’s a male author setting up those conditions. There comes a point where, if nudity is being demanded of one gender and not the other, we have to look at the author as well as the in-universe actors.
Ravens
1 year ago
As with many assumptions on the very long text of WoT the “gratuitous female nudity, no male nudity” is somewhat questionable – recently I addressed this somewhere else and counted out all the occurrences of both. Now, I did this manually and so there’s a margin of error, but it at least demonstrates the general point: in terms of “on screen” nudity there are 17 male and 25 female scenes. For a ratio of roughly 2 to 3. (Or a 33% advantage female).
Is that gratuitous? I suppose it depends on the reader. But I feel it’s a sensitivity that the reader is carrying into the text with them rather than an inherent part. Also such as with spanking being viewed as “kinky” – it’s less casually so to people who went through corporeal punishment at home, school, and workplace.
Nigel Redpath
1 year ago
Thanks for the evidence regarding the holding of Saidin visa vie bond compulsion. I had not put that together before. As for those saying that there are in universe reasons for the nudity I would just argue that Jordan creates the universe and the rules, and easily could have done it other ways. Just for thought with respect to the Aes Sedai they could form a circle rather than bare their chests that would prove that they are channeling Saidar and this female, and you could even write about how it is a part of the “sisterhood/bond” of all Ages Sedai. I never noticed it before, but as Sylas said, once you notice it it is hard to ignore.
Ravens
1 year ago
*forgot to say that’s for EotW to KoD, I.e., Jordan’s writing.
This has definitely been an ongoing discussion for years so I even at the time, people were side-eying some of Jordan’s preoccupation with this.
I find the comparison between Rand and Toveine to be a bit unfair in that one is the main protagonist of the story, and the other is a side character (and one with clearly antagonistic intent). And as you yourself point out, Egwene and the damane are a female counterpart in exploring this issue with mre sensitivity.
I agree though – you can go back and forth with some of the in-story reasons for things like the female-nudity ceremonies, or the emphasis on stripping/spanking, or even with what Logain/Taim are doing here – which I do think are mostly inherently logical – and the author’s creation of the world where that occurs.
I think in some ways he was maybe playing with conventions/tropes, and also trying to portray a world where sometimes things happen or make choices that are problematic and that’s still presented in the narrative – not as a favorable thing, or something the author approves of, but something that is a consequence of how this character responds to some event.
Also thinking back to some of my own writing (in my teen years) I think I did sometimes fall on similar tropes in terms of how the suffering of women was portrayed, and what kinds of things were seen as more demeaning in part because they reflected my own fears, if that makes sense. And there’s another argument to be had there in terms of if that continues to propagate those ideas or is just reflecting them. (Although again it may be also much different when it’s coming from a woman vs. a man creating this world.)
One thing that RJ did was just things from our history to build a history into his world. I suspect that, for example, the nudity necessary for Aes Sedai rituals was somewhat based on the myth of the papal toilet chair. The papal initiate was allegedly made to strip from the waist down in front of an audience, then lower himself onto the chair so a medical practitioner could examine his genitals, after which they would make the announcement that he had all the proper parts. It was just a myth, but a very pervasive one!
Exactly this. Most of the ceremonial nudity in WoT was based off of things (both real and fictitious) from our own history.
@@@@@ 29
Again, this.
In regard to the spanking. As an older reader (I’m in my fifties now), spanking was indeed an acceptable form of punishment when I was a child. I received many a spanking when I was a kid from both my parents and grandparents (one of my maternal grandmother’s favorite sayings was “Spare the rod, spoil the child”).
Also, and this will probably blow the minds of younger readers lol, while I was in school, teachers had wooden paddles in their classrooms, and it wasn’t uncommon for students who disrupted class to be taken out into the hall to receive “swats”.
carles
1 year ago
Hello everyone, this is my first comment but I have been following this Reading for a long time.
Submission in the AS / Warder Bond doesn’t work with any male channelers. The case of Rand / Alanna is the most obvious, but it can be observed in the case of Merise / Narishma or Corele / Damer Flinn. This is specifically mentioned several times. Cadsuane is the first one to notice this and Pevara confirms it to Lyrelle Sedai at the end of the series. And she is much stronger than Androl.
Female channelers having to strip to prove that they are not men doesn’t even make any sense because they can detect each other’s channeling ability at a glance. No man would have been able to infiltrate their rituals.
WoT introduces many ways in which women can be perfectly enslaved via OP vs men. Men are more resistent to weaker forms of Compulsion, holding saidin protects them from any Compulsion (while holding saidar makes no difference for the women), and while male a’dam can’t be resisted in the short term, it would eventually let a captive man gain control over his leashers. Female a’dam keeps the victim enslaved forever. Warder bond can be used to compel, but it has to be done actively and can sometimes be resisted. One of the BAs can’t stop her warder from pursuing her with intent to kill, for example. Asha’man bond with the “extra bit” by contrast guarantees complete obedience without any further input. And of course no thought is given to how it could be easily misused and almost certainly would be in an environment such as the Black Tower.
Additionally, while Jordan is reluctant to kill off even evil women in the series, he is curiously open to consigning female characters to futures of endless torment and degradation, which are much worse than a quick death.
It is what it is. WoT was remarkable for it’s time because it introduced so many female characters with power and agency, but it does have it’s baggage.
As a point of interest which may be connected to the female ritual nudity of the series, Origins of the Wheel of Time revealed that The White Goddess by Robert Graves was a significant influence.
Female channelers having to strip to prove that they are not men doesn’t even make any sense because they can detect each other’s channeling ability at a glance. No man would have been able to infiltrate their rituals.
Women (and men) can shield their own ability to channel, right? It is something that the Aes Sedai as an institution have forgotten by the beginning of the series, but a huge part of the “mood” of the White Tower is that they’re holding on to customs and traditions that they no longer know the origins of, but which have become hallowed by the thousands of years of repetition. It is very much within the realm of possibility that when the White Tower was formed, that knowledge was still around, or the memory of it was, and so something more was needed.
I think it might also reflect how a lot of traditions become kind of ‘set in stone’ even after their original need no longer really applies, and instead it’s just become part of their identity (for better or worse).
Regarding inequality – you know, I don’t disagree that it is upsetting in that sense, but it’s another one of those things I ponder when it comes to worldbuilding. Is it more realistic to create a world where it all happens to be fair, or where – as much as it sucks – there are just some aspects that are inherently unfair and that’s how it is, and so how does society deal with that? Even our world at some fundamental level is ‘unfair’, but thankfully we do live in a society that mostly accommodates that. Like, I’m just naturally weaker than any man, and subject to some biological inconveniences and also am nearly blind without my glasses but thankfully that hasn’t really affected my place in society or ability to participate in it. (Obviously ymmv and there are many glaring exceptions).
Of course – again – nothing is in a vacuum and there is always the question of WHY the creator of the world made it that way, and what they were influenced by and what they in turn were trying to say (if anything). And I think it’s good to have these discussions and at least be AWARE of these biases and how they could be influencing things, regardless of how much value/importance you ascribe to it or how much you think it taints the work. (Not that I think anybody here is calling for Robert Jordan to be canceled). Honestly, in some ways, that’s part of the fun of discussing/criticizing and looking at things from different angles.
@40: Let us also remember the wise words of Marcus Cole from the Babylon 5 episode “A Late Delivery from Avalon”: “You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, ‘Wouldn’t it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?’ So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe.”
@@@@@ 43: That’s true, but it’s done *specifically* to shame the ones who were captured. I’d venture a guess that uncomfortability (making up new words here!) in being naked in public is more pervasive in women than in men (in general, ymmv).
@44: In my experience, female nudity in fiction tends to be played for the sleaze factor, while male nudity tends to be played for cheap laughs. Though I’m sure there are exceptions.
This doesn’t change the fact that a female channeler can prove her femalness just by channeling or not concealing her ability in the first place. Everyone who can’t be sensed as a channeler of saidar would just be immediately suspect at secret ceremonies.No need for stripping. For that matter, what about women who are genetically men? Would they have channeled saidin despite having female shape? Their existence isn’t something that would have been unknown or not aknowledged in Jordan’s time.
With the readthrough of Winter’s Heart coming up, I do wonder how well Sylas will take Logain’s relationship with his other Warder. #DontKinkShameGabrelle
This doesn’t change the fact that a female channeler can prove her femalness just by channeling or not concealing her ability in the first place.
Are we certain every Aes Sedai was a channeller at this stage (e.g. the Breaking)? Maybe some women, in the distrustful atmosphere of the times, weren’t interested in broadcasting their strength or lack thereof. You want this simple answer, when there are plenty of reasons “just channelling” may not have been wise. We know that the Ajahs did not gradually divide when the Tower was created, but rather reflect pre-existing, pre-Breaking divisions among the Aes Sedai. Perhaps part of everyone trusting each other was a prohibition on embracing the Source without direct permission, much like you generally don’t want men with swords/guns/etc at highly charged negotiations on a battlefield, for example. RJ was pretty obviously riffing off the legend that Popes had to have their genitals checked before assuming office – in other words, it was considered plausible for this to go the other way, too.
. For that matter, what about women who are genetically men? Would they have channeled saidin despite having female shape? Their existence isn’t something that would have been unknown or not aknowledged in Jordan’s time.
I mean, it is debatable the degree to which transgender issues were top of mind in the 90s and early 2000s. More to the point, blame him or not, RJ’s universe is gender essentialist – the soul has a gender, and that is what determines whether you can touch saidar or saidin. If there is a woman that channels saidin, or rather, if the early post-Breaking Aes Sedai were aware of that phenomenon, then they are by definition in service to the Shadow, since the only evidence we have of a “male” soul being shoved into a “female” body comes from the Dark One’s actions; in all other cases where a specific soul gets spun out, it lands in a body which corresponds to its essential nature.
Your entire argument rests on the idea that when the Tower was formed and its first traditions and laws began to take shape, everyone lived in a utopia in which open and free sharing of, well, everything, was not only prevalent but expected. By contrast, everything we know of that era (which isn’t much) implies a lot of uncertainty, a lot of mistrust, a lot of conflict, so the idea of redundant but reinforcing rituals to ensure mutual trust and dependency makes a lot of sense. We also know that the first Amyrlin won her position mostly by hunting down and murdering/stilling rival groups who wouldn’t bow to her – not sure why it’s so hard to believe that there would be an attitude of “we’re all going the extra mile to prove we are who we say we are, that we aren’t a threat to each other, and that we will ritually engage in a mutually humiliating process to show that.”
Do we get an explanation of why the Reds were bonded immediately? That’s another narrative choice which seems questionable.
The in-world explanation for the kiss is consistent with the established connections between gestures and weaving. It can be justified internally for whatever that’s worth.
Hi, all! While we realize that this is the sort of topic that invites speculation on an author’s private life and personal proclivities, it doesn’t seem like the most productive path, here. Let’s try to keep the discussion and theories focused on the work–thanks!
@2,
I don’t remember if there’s an in-book explanation, but I think it’s because the compulsion that’s included in the bonding means they don’t have to kill the Sisters. Logain had influence but not quite enough to challenge Taim at this time, so his choices for dealing with the Red Sisters (who had come to forcibly bond the men) were killing or bonding. It’s been a while since I’ve read the series, so I could be wrong.
@2 There is some explanation as to why Reds were bonded instantly, it’s to bring them under control and avoid a fight, also Logain believed he was saving them from Taim and others, because he was afraid they would be killed or have a mock trial and then killed. Bonding them removes an excuse from Taim to kill them.
As for the kiss there is also an in-story explanation, because that’s how Asha’man learned bonding. They kiss their wives to bond them. “An extra bit” refers to Compulsion to obey part.
For the Compulsion part, I believe there will be a reciprocal conversion from Aes Sedai when they decide to start bonding Asha’man, either from White Tower or from Salidar, where a large contingent of Aes Sedai will discuss bonding Asha’man and secretly adding a Compulsion part, to make them more complaint. And if I remember my timeline correctly, Aes Sedai discuss it BEFORE Logain forceful bonding of Aes Sedai becomes known to them.
Zerah believes the story, Pevara obviously doesn’t.
The AS didn’t plan to bond the Asha’man, they wanted to gentle them (maybe without a proper trial, another reason for choosing someone who was involved in that before as the leader).
MODS: Several times in Sylas’s commentary, Zerah was misspelled as “Zhara.”
Anyway. This is a sensitive subject. Suffice to say there will be more nudity, and also more violence against women. But there is also some significant physical and mental torture of male characters that is arguably worse than any seen on the page against women thus far. Once in a scene written by Jordan, once in a scene written by Sanderson, and that’s just what I could think of off the top of my head. YMMV.
One of the things Jordan loves to do is set up little parallel situations. Here we have Zerah forcibly compelled to obey someone (or two someones in this case) and Toveine forcibly compelled to obey someone.
I think it’s important to note that many people questioned Robert Jordan’s proclivity for female nudity and rape/bondage themes back when he was still alive and writing. So it’s not something that was just a product of a different time or something; this was an important discussion even back then.
I think the various discussions around how torture is tied into nudity for female characters, but not for male characters, is an interesting one, though Sylas is being a little selective in his memory of when these things happen. Lan, for example, is explicitly raped by Myrelle using the compulsion aspect of the Warder bond, and of course Moiraine passing the bond in the first place is a type of rape. On the whole, however, it’s definitely weighted and that deserves some inspection.
However, this seems like a bad instance to bring it up. First off, there isn’t a real parallel to be drawn between Toveine and Rand. Even without the meta aspect, where Rand is a hero and Toveine at best an antagonist, their situations are fundamentally dissimilar. Toveine is preparing to launch an armed assault on a bunch of innocent people, with the explicit purpose of severing them from the Source, which is repeatedly called out as aa fate worse than death (and which nearly always leads to death). In that sense, nearly any action that Logain and his followers take to prevent their own stilling is morally justifiable as simple self defense. Beyond that, we can infer now from Taim’s attitude, and get confirmation later, that this is Logain actually attempting to spare the lives of Toveine and her sisters, in a place where it would be infinitely easier to just let them die.
Alanna mind rapes and essentially tries to enslave Rand because she thinks it’ll gain her and the Tower an advantage, and his feelings or agency or intentions (which are benign) be damned. Logain does the same as not only an act of fully-justifiable self-defense, but also inconveniences himself and puts his position at considerable risk in order to actively help people who are there to kill him.
Should keep in mind Moiraine’s handling of her bond with Lan, or Alanna admitting when asked that she had tried to Comple Rand via the bond – such compulsion was clearly seen by Aes Sedai as a normal part of the warder bond.
So it is not surprising, ISTM, that the Asha’man should adopt the same attitude…
@8 .” But there is also some significant physical and mental torture of male characters that is arguably worse than any seen on the page against women thus far. ” Arguably when Semirhage overstimulates and kills Cabriana Sedai’s Warder with pleasure, that is pretty much the worst on screen torture we see in the entire series. And I am pretty sure that already happened.
What “they” said up post re bonding Aes Sedai to avoid killing them and using kissing because that was how they learned to do the bond from other Ashaman. There was no intent shown in text by Logain’s men to be excessive, abusive or sexual.
More Reds were bonded in this exercise because Elaida volunteered them to engage in the mission (to take out the few men she believed were likely to be in the Black Tower). . .
Speaking of forced subservient raltions (bond): One of the things the narrative leaves out is wether the bond between the male forsaken and the dark one (that protects them from the taint) has other consequences – that may place the male forsaken in a more dependant role in their relation with the dark one (mind reading, compulsion, other?). The male forsaken would have had no choice in accepting this bond even with the drawbacks.
Also no mention of this bond after Rand cleanses the taint.
Would have been interesting for Jordan to explore that a little bit.
In her entry in The Wheel of Time Companion, it clarifies that Toveine’s preference for “young boys” is those in their mid to late teens. So, at least from a modern perspective, she is a pedophile.
I always assumed that bond between the Dark One and Forsaken regardless of whether thry are Male or Female is identical, because it allows them to draw upon the One Power. As added bonus, that same bond provides protection from the taint to the Male Forsaken. As per books, Graendal taunts Demandred and other males that they less trustworthy since they are no longer dependant on the Dark One for taint protection. It means to me that Forsaken connection for Male and females was the same, but since Females didn’t receive extra bonus of taint protection and still remained loyal they are more faithful to the Dark One than Males who got that extra incentive to stay loyal.
@13 – Yes, that is another example that was pretty bad, but what I was thinking about was another scene involving Semi in TGS. And I’d argue that the victim there considered that a torture worse than death.
@19 – I’m not sure that I’d call it identical for male and female Forsaken. The male Forsaken have those “black cords” which siphon off the taint, but the females are never seen with them. Rand severed the black cords on both Ishamael and Asmodean. But RJ also explicitly said that the ability to channel the True Power (not One Power) was a matter of 1) being able to channel and 2) the Dark One letting you, and NOT the black cords, which were a separate thing.
So I’m not sure it’s helpful to think of them as the same thing, or even that the black cords could be considered a “bond.” In all cases, the Forsaken still had total free will to do evil, good, or even to betray the Dark One. They would certainly be punished for some of those things, but they were not bound by compulsion against doing them. The Dark One isn’t even aware of all the petty betrayals the Forsaken did. Unlike the Black Ajah who are completely bound against betraying the DO. And of course the exception of those who are mindtrapped with the cour’souvra, who are effectively compelled to behave because they under constant surveillance and can be snuffed out with a pinch of the fingers from halfway around the world if they don’t.
I remember that when PoD was released most people assumed “the extra bit” was the surprise orgasm as part of the bonding. It certainly still reads that way to me but perhaps interpretations have changed.
It seems this section touched a nerve. I know on my past readings of the series I never really picked up on the pattern being presented here with regard to female characters often being striped, and the way they are tortured. I find the argument about wise ones on their first trip needing to be naked especially persuasive in this. I guess I internalised the use of switching and spanking as corporal punishment which seems super common in the type of power structures shown in the white tower and elsewhere, though that could have been me just taking from my own life experience and projecting it. I wish over the years I’d been more aware of what the community was talking about in regards to the series but I enjoyed it in nearly complete isolation.
As for the difference in the bond between men and women I seem to recall that Aes Sedai absolutely can use the bond to compel their warders, and that rand is the exception to that, something I always attributed to him being Ta’veren. Is that not the case?
@22 I’m pretty sure that Rand can resist the compelling of the bond not out of being ta’veren, but from the mental conditioning he’s forced on himself. Alanna at one point mentions it’s like trying to push a stone, if I recall correctly.
It may be just me, but my read on a bunch of this was that there were people doing bad things as you got closer to the possible end of the world. The world kept getting bleaker all around, and so people were taking more and more extreme measures as it went. Maybe I was glossing over some of the issues, but to me, it seemed like that was the tone the world RJ was going for in the world.
Also worth pointing out that some of the “nudity” rituals have an actual purpose which requires a lack of clothing. I guess it is the pattern and not individual instance that is the problem – but so much of the nudity we encounter is among female channelers, not “regular” people. And women in this universe have a very strong, very rational desire to do everything in their power to ensure that men aren’t infiltrating any of these ceremonies… because those men will go insane and turn into rogue WMDs, essentially. Stopping that ahead of time is of massive importance.
It’s also worth remembering, for what it’s worth, that in every instance of ceremonial nudity, the ceremony was designed by other women. As far as I can remember, the only man that ever forces a woman to strip is Ishamael.
It’s not mental conditioning; Rand can resist Alanna’s attempt to use the bond against him because he was holding saidin at the time. (There’s another passage in the same book where, IIRC, Sammael or Graendal observes that holding the Power makes the “little tricks” impossible to use on that person.) Had Alanna tried when Rand wasn’t holding the Power…
Of course, because this is a series where a lot of information is missing and a lot of people never talk to each other, this doesn’t become a big point because Alanna just assumes that Rand is uncompellable and never tries again (and because Rand rarely lets her into his presence again…)
@22, @23 – Alanna said it was like picking up a tree with your bare hands, but close enough. :) I always thought that it wasn’t about being ta’veren… Alanna couldn’t compel Rand because of either him being the strongest male channeler of all time, or the fact that he was holding a huge amount of saidin at the moment she tried to compel him. As far as I know RJ didn’t explicitly confirm this, but he implied it with a comment in a blog post from 2005:
If it was just plain impossible because of ta’veren nature, I feel like Alanna’s description might have been more like, “It’s as impossible as a farmer learning to fly.” But picking up a tree makes it sound more like, “It’s theoretically possible, but no one in a million years would be strong enough to do it.”
@@@@@ 25 – the issue is that whether or not it’s women asking other women to get naked, it’s a male author setting up those conditions. There comes a point where, if nudity is being demanded of one gender and not the other, we have to look at the author as well as the in-universe actors.
As with many assumptions on the very long text of WoT the “gratuitous female nudity, no male nudity” is somewhat questionable – recently I addressed this somewhere else and counted out all the occurrences of both. Now, I did this manually and so there’s a margin of error, but it at least demonstrates the general point: in terms of “on screen” nudity there are 17 male and 25 female scenes. For a ratio of roughly 2 to 3. (Or a 33% advantage female).
Is that gratuitous? I suppose it depends on the reader. But I feel it’s a sensitivity that the reader is carrying into the text with them rather than an inherent part. Also such as with spanking being viewed as “kinky” – it’s less casually so to people who went through corporeal punishment at home, school, and workplace.
Thanks for the evidence regarding the holding of Saidin visa vie bond compulsion. I had not put that together before. As for those saying that there are in universe reasons for the nudity I would just argue that Jordan creates the universe and the rules, and easily could have done it other ways. Just for thought with respect to the Aes Sedai they could form a circle rather than bare their chests that would prove that they are channeling Saidar and this female, and you could even write about how it is a part of the “sisterhood/bond” of all Ages Sedai. I never noticed it before, but as Sylas said, once you notice it it is hard to ignore.
*forgot to say that’s for EotW to KoD, I.e., Jordan’s writing.
This has definitely been an ongoing discussion for years so I even at the time, people were side-eying some of Jordan’s preoccupation with this.
I find the comparison between Rand and Toveine to be a bit unfair in that one is the main protagonist of the story, and the other is a side character (and one with clearly antagonistic intent). And as you yourself point out, Egwene and the damane are a female counterpart in exploring this issue with mre sensitivity.
I agree though – you can go back and forth with some of the in-story reasons for things like the female-nudity ceremonies, or the emphasis on stripping/spanking, or even with what Logain/Taim are doing here – which I do think are mostly inherently logical – and the author’s creation of the world where that occurs.
I think in some ways he was maybe playing with conventions/tropes, and also trying to portray a world where sometimes things happen or make choices that are problematic and that’s still presented in the narrative – not as a favorable thing, or something the author approves of, but something that is a consequence of how this character responds to some event.
Also thinking back to some of my own writing (in my teen years) I think I did sometimes fall on similar tropes in terms of how the suffering of women was portrayed, and what kinds of things were seen as more demeaning in part because they reflected my own fears, if that makes sense. And there’s another argument to be had there in terms of if that continues to propagate those ideas or is just reflecting them. (Although again it may be also much different when it’s coming from a woman vs. a man creating this world.)
One thing that RJ did was just things from our history to build a history into his world. I suspect that, for example, the nudity necessary for Aes Sedai rituals was somewhat based on the myth of the papal toilet chair. The papal initiate was allegedly made to strip from the waist down in front of an audience, then lower himself onto the chair so a medical practitioner could examine his genitals, after which they would make the announcement that he had all the proper parts. It was just a myth, but a very pervasive one!
@@@@@ 33
Exactly this. Most of the ceremonial nudity in WoT was based off of things (both real and fictitious) from our own history.
@@@@@ 29
Again, this.
In regard to the spanking. As an older reader (I’m in my fifties now), spanking was indeed an acceptable form of punishment when I was a child. I received many a spanking when I was a kid from both my parents and grandparents (one of my maternal grandmother’s favorite sayings was “Spare the rod, spoil the child”).
Also, and this will probably blow the minds of younger readers lol, while I was in school, teachers had wooden paddles in their classrooms, and it wasn’t uncommon for students who disrupted class to be taken out into the hall to receive “swats”.
Hello everyone, this is my first comment but I have been following this Reading for a long time.
Submission in the AS / Warder Bond doesn’t work with any male channelers. The case of Rand / Alanna is the most obvious, but it can be observed in the case of Merise / Narishma or Corele / Damer Flinn. This is specifically mentioned several times. Cadsuane is the first one to notice this and Pevara confirms it to Lyrelle Sedai at the end of the series. And she is much stronger than Androl.
@33 – I was gonna mention that! I think it’s definitely another ‘turning of the Wheel’ type real-world thing he was pulling from.
Female channelers having to strip to prove that they are not men doesn’t even make any sense because they can detect each other’s channeling ability at a glance. No man would have been able to infiltrate their rituals.
WoT introduces many ways in which women can be perfectly enslaved via OP vs men. Men are more resistent to weaker forms of Compulsion, holding saidin protects them from any Compulsion (while holding saidar makes no difference for the women), and while male a’dam can’t be resisted in the short term, it would eventually let a captive man gain control over his leashers. Female a’dam keeps the victim enslaved forever. Warder bond can be used to compel, but it has to be done actively and can sometimes be resisted. One of the BAs can’t stop her warder from pursuing her with intent to kill, for example. Asha’man bond with the “extra bit” by contrast guarantees complete obedience without any further input. And of course no thought is given to how it could be easily misused and almost certainly would be in an environment such as the Black Tower.
Additionally, while Jordan is reluctant to kill off even evil women in the series, he is curiously open to consigning female characters to futures of endless torment and degradation, which are much worse than a quick death.
It is what it is. WoT was remarkable for it’s time because it introduced so many female characters with power and agency, but it does have it’s baggage.
As a point of interest which may be connected to the female ritual nudity of the series, Origins of the Wheel of Time revealed that The White Goddess by Robert Graves was a significant influence.
@@@@@ 37 – this is not true:
Women (and men) can shield their own ability to channel, right? It is something that the Aes Sedai as an institution have forgotten by the beginning of the series, but a huge part of the “mood” of the White Tower is that they’re holding on to customs and traditions that they no longer know the origins of, but which have become hallowed by the thousands of years of repetition. It is very much within the realm of possibility that when the White Tower was formed, that knowledge was still around, or the memory of it was, and so something more was needed.
I think it might also reflect how a lot of traditions become kind of ‘set in stone’ even after their original need no longer really applies, and instead it’s just become part of their identity (for better or worse).
Regarding inequality – you know, I don’t disagree that it is upsetting in that sense, but it’s another one of those things I ponder when it comes to worldbuilding. Is it more realistic to create a world where it all happens to be fair, or where – as much as it sucks – there are just some aspects that are inherently unfair and that’s how it is, and so how does society deal with that? Even our world at some fundamental level is ‘unfair’, but thankfully we do live in a society that mostly accommodates that. Like, I’m just naturally weaker than any man, and subject to some biological inconveniences and also am nearly blind without my glasses but thankfully that hasn’t really affected my place in society or ability to participate in it. (Obviously ymmv and there are many glaring exceptions).
Of course – again – nothing is in a vacuum and there is always the question of WHY the creator of the world made it that way, and what they were influenced by and what they in turn were trying to say (if anything). And I think it’s good to have these discussions and at least be AWARE of these biases and how they could be influencing things, regardless of how much value/importance you ascribe to it or how much you think it taints the work. (Not that I think anybody here is calling for Robert Jordan to be canceled). Honestly, in some ways, that’s part of the fun of discussing/criticizing and looking at things from different angles.
@40: Let us also remember the wise words of Marcus Cole from the Babylon 5 episode “A Late Delivery from Avalon”: “You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, ‘Wouldn’t it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?’ So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe.”
@41 – OT I know, but I love that. One of my 3 favorite Marcus quotes from B5, the others being:
Ivanova, of the First Ones: “So they understand our language, they just refuse to speak to us in it.” Marcus: “Who knew they were French? Sorry.”
and
“I always say you can get much further with a kind word and a 2×4, than you can with just a kind word.”
@25: There’s the sequence upcoming wherein Faile et al are captured by the Brotherless, right off the top of my head.
The narrative lingers on woman’s nudity and abuse in a way it generally does not with the men.
@@@@@ 43: That’s true, but it’s done *specifically* to shame the ones who were captured. I’d venture a guess that uncomfortability (making up new words here!) in being naked in public is more pervasive in women than in men (in general, ymmv).
@44: In my experience, female nudity in fiction tends to be played for the sleaze factor, while male nudity tends to be played for cheap laughs. Though I’m sure there are exceptions.
Andrewrm @39:
This doesn’t change the fact that a female channeler can prove her femalness just by channeling or not concealing her ability in the first place. Everyone who can’t be sensed as a channeler of saidar would just be immediately suspect at secret ceremonies.No need for stripping. For that matter, what about women who are genetically men? Would they have channeled saidin despite having female shape? Their existence isn’t something that would have been unknown or not aknowledged in Jordan’s time.
With the readthrough of Winter’s Heart coming up, I do wonder how well Sylas will take Logain’s relationship with his other Warder. #DontKinkShameGabrelle
@@@@@ 46 – Lots to unpack
Are we certain every Aes Sedai was a channeller at this stage (e.g. the Breaking)? Maybe some women, in the distrustful atmosphere of the times, weren’t interested in broadcasting their strength or lack thereof. You want this simple answer, when there are plenty of reasons “just channelling” may not have been wise. We know that the Ajahs did not gradually divide when the Tower was created, but rather reflect pre-existing, pre-Breaking divisions among the Aes Sedai. Perhaps part of everyone trusting each other was a prohibition on embracing the Source without direct permission, much like you generally don’t want men with swords/guns/etc at highly charged negotiations on a battlefield, for example. RJ was pretty obviously riffing off the legend that Popes had to have their genitals checked before assuming office – in other words, it was considered plausible for this to go the other way, too.
I mean, it is debatable the degree to which transgender issues were top of mind in the 90s and early 2000s. More to the point, blame him or not, RJ’s universe is gender essentialist – the soul has a gender, and that is what determines whether you can touch saidar or saidin. If there is a woman that channels saidin, or rather, if the early post-Breaking Aes Sedai were aware of that phenomenon, then they are by definition in service to the Shadow, since the only evidence we have of a “male” soul being shoved into a “female” body comes from the Dark One’s actions; in all other cases where a specific soul gets spun out, it lands in a body which corresponds to its essential nature.
Your entire argument rests on the idea that when the Tower was formed and its first traditions and laws began to take shape, everyone lived in a utopia in which open and free sharing of, well, everything, was not only prevalent but expected. By contrast, everything we know of that era (which isn’t much) implies a lot of uncertainty, a lot of mistrust, a lot of conflict, so the idea of redundant but reinforcing rituals to ensure mutual trust and dependency makes a lot of sense. We also know that the first Amyrlin won her position mostly by hunting down and murdering/stilling rival groups who wouldn’t bow to her – not sure why it’s so hard to believe that there would be an attitude of “we’re all going the extra mile to prove we are who we say we are, that we aren’t a threat to each other, and that we will ritually engage in a mutually humiliating process to show that.”